Author paul.moore
Recipients brett.cannon, eric.snow, eryksun, jkloth, lukasz.langa, mattip, ncoghlan, paul.moore, steve.dower, tim.golden, zach.ware
Date 2019-03-12.15:55:45
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> > This bothers me - how will backward compatibility work in that case?
> The new search order is compatible with the old search order, so you can update all your layouts to have DLL dependencies in suitable locations and you'll be fine.

OK, cool. But one thing I'm not clear on, will this change just affect
the embedded Python, or will it affect the whole process - which would
mean that supporting an embedded Python 3.8 interpreter would mean
potentially reorganising the application layout. That may be quite a
cost, in some applications.

Note that this is all on the basis of "I don't understand the
implications, they should be documented" rather than being a specific
problem that I know will happen. My particular scenario, though, is an
application like Vim, that provides optional support for an "embedded
scripting" which may be any one of a number of Python versions, or
even other languages. In an application like that, costs for
supporting Python 3.8 may simply result in no (or delayed) support for
Python 3.8, rather than the application getting fixed.

> And if you're still writing code for Windows 7 with no security updates installed, Python 3.8 isn't going to save you anyway.

Nobody's suggesting that it will. But maintaining *existing* code that
supports older Windows versions, while still allowing Python 3.8 to be
used as an embedded scripting language on systems that support it, is
an entirely reasonable proposal.

> > I really have no feel as to what practical impact there would be on an
> > embedded application.
> Since we're not going to change the default search directories for the entire process when embedding

OK, if that's the case, then that alleviates most of my concerns. But
it really wasn't obvious to me, and it's something that I think should
be made clear in the docs, if only to reassure embedding applications
that Python isn't making global changes. The docs for SetDllDirectory
seem to imply that there *is* a global impact - "The SetDllDirectory
function affects all subsequent calls to the LoadLibrary and
LoadLibraryEx functions" (note - *all* subsequent calls, which implies
that behaviour will change for the embedding application once Python
has been loaded).

> the only practical impact is that your extension modules need to have their dependent DLLs either:
> * in the system directory
> * adjacent to the .pyd file
> * in a directory added using AddDllDirectory

That seems fine, so let's just state that and keep things simple for
embedders to understand.

> And if the embedding application is already calling SetDefaultDllDirectories, as has been recommended for years, then they're already experiencing this change and won't have to update a thing.

Sadly, in my experience, an awful lot of projects (specifically, open
source projects that write mostly cross-platform code, with the
minimum of OS-specific differences) don't follow recommendations like
this. They use LoadLibrary without digging too deeply into the
implications or complexities, as long as it does what they want. And I
don't think MS helped themselves much here, either - the whole
business with SxS installs and assemblies was (IMO) *way* too much
complexity for most cross platform projects to bother with, and went
ignored. Even once things got simpler again, there remained a sense of
"don't go there, just get something that works". (And to be clear, I'm
not bashing on MS here - I find the Linux machinery around all of this
to be just as complex and confusing).

Anyhow, if as you say the only impact is that when a pyd file depends
on a DLL, that DLL needs to be located in one of three places, all of
which are equally valid on Python <=3.7, and there's no impact on the
non-Python part of the embedded application, then it's not a big deal.
Let's make the change, write up those points in What's New (at least),
and leave it at that.
Date User Action Args
2019-03-12 15:55:45paul.mooresetrecipients: + paul.moore, brett.cannon, ncoghlan, tim.golden, jkloth, lukasz.langa, eric.snow, zach.ware, mattip, eryksun, steve.dower
2019-03-12 15:55:45paul.moorelinkissue36085 messages
2019-03-12 15:55:45paul.moorecreate