Author lkcl
Recipients BreamoreBoy, LRN, Ray.Donnelly, WhiteTiger, alesko, amaury.forgeotdarc, davidfraser, doko, eric.araujo, georg.brandl, giampaolo.rodola, kalev, lkcl, rpetrov, rschoon.old, schmir, scott.tsai, tarek
Date 2012-07-01.03:53:32
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Message-id <1341114814.02.0.378244478745.issue3871@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>
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> distutils2 is the place to add such new features. 

you're not getting it.  you've just told both this
mingw32 project and also the new effort by ray that
they can go fuck themselves, because their efforts
are a total waste of time (as far as python 2 is
concerned).

why? because without patches to python 2 distutils, you're condemning
their work to total irrelevance.  why? because nobody in their
right mind is going to do what you suggest - "go educate people"
about using distutils2.  that's tens of thousands of package
maintainers, and you're expecting *two* people to do that job - 
you must be off your head if you think that's even remotely
realistic!  i can't quite understand why you would even make such
a recommendation, because it's so clearly unworkable and unrealistic.

now, if python2 was in any way going to die, be totally
irrelevant or otherwise be superceded at any time in
the next ten years i would in no way be so pissed at this
freeze, and would in no way bother to comment on this.
i don't like doing this sort of thing: it makes me look
like i'm some sort of fucking idiot - but that's tough luck
on me.  someone has to tell it straight, and truthfully say
the things that everyone else doesn't have the balls to say.

what has me particularly pissed off is that the freeze happened
years *AFTER* roumen created this initial patch.

also what has me particularly pissed off is that the freeze
happened because *other people* - not roumen, and not ray -
didn't do their job, either in checking that their modifications
to distutils would have an impact on any other ports, but more
than that, neither did anyone else in the python team.

why should ray and roumen's work be made insultingly irrelevant,
just because of mistakes made by *other people*?


by complete contrast, i absolutely agree with you 100% that in
NO WAY should any modifications to distutils in python3 sources
be EVER permitted.  forcing people to use distutils2
for *new* packages, as well as packages being transitioned to python3,
and documenting that fact (and the required procedure to be followed)
prominently on the python web site, is perfectly reasonable.

the reason why it is perfectly reasonable is because the developer
who is writing the new package (or transitioning the old one) is
*actively* taking the steps - THEY are taking steps - THEY are the
ones ACTIVELY doing the work.  intiated BY THEM.  people PLURAL.
tens of THOUSANDS of people.  and those people will read documentation,
and will ask questions on the mailing list, and will generally follow
the advice and guidance of the community.

contrast this with a completely unrealistic expectation that TWO
people must DEMAND of those exact same tens of thousands of python2
developers that "ohhh, you muuust use distutils2" and you can perhaps
appreciate why i am not exactly impressed.

of course, if the Python Software Foundation is offering to fund
these two developers with a campaign to educate the entire world of
python2 package maintainers with the demand that they all convert to
distutils2, and is willing to support them by creating a write-up
and a series of articles and other supporting documentation on the
python.org web site, then that is an entirely different matter.
History
Date User Action Args
2012-07-01 03:53:34lkclsetrecipients: + lkcl, georg.brandl, doko, amaury.forgeotdarc, davidfraser, giampaolo.rodola, schmir, scott.tsai, tarek, eric.araujo, rpetrov, rschoon.old, WhiteTiger, BreamoreBoy, LRN, alesko, kalev, Ray.Donnelly
2012-07-01 03:53:34lkclsetmessageid: <1341114814.02.0.378244478745.issue3871@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>
2012-07-01 03:53:33lkcllinkissue3871 messages
2012-07-01 03:53:32lkclcreate