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Title: Idle: stop depending on console output
Type: behavior Stage: test needed
Components: IDLE Versions: Python 3.10
Status: open Resolution:
Dependencies: Superseder:
Assigned To: terry.reedy Nosy List: ggenellina, markroseman, ned.deily, roger.serwy, terry.reedy
Priority: normal Keywords:

Created on 2013-06-27 22:43 by terry.reedy, last changed 2022-04-11 14:57 by admin.

Messages (3)
msg191966 - (view) Author: Terry J. Reedy (terry.reedy) * (Python committer) Date: 2013-06-27 22:43
It appears that Idle was originally written to run on *nix after being launched from a command-line console. Messages related to Idle code (warnings and exceptions) are sent back to the console, while messages related to user code go to the shell window. This makes Idle a hybrid text/gui application.

Later, Idle was ported to run on Windows with the pythonw.exe no-console binary. When it is started normally for Windows, from anything but a console, there is no console. This has caused problems when Idle tries to write to the non-existent console. (I do not know the situation on modern Mac and *nix.) (Even when a console does exist, it will usually get buried and messages may not be seen.)

Example: The warning system, monkey patched in both and and documented in the former. (Edited quote from 3.3.)

# Override warnings module to write to warning_stream.
# Initialize to send IDLE internal warnings to the console.
# ScriptBinding.check_syntax() will temporarily redirect the stream
# to the shell window to display warnings when checking user's code.
warning_stream = sys.__stderr__  # Typically None, at least on Windows.
def idle_showwarning(...
    if file is None:
        file = warning_stream  # Which may itself be None!!!
        file.write(...  # AttributeError when file is still None
    except OSError:
        pass  # if file (probably __stderr__) is invalid, skip warning.

The patch for #18081 also catches AttributeError as a bandage.

Issue goal: make Idle a true gui app by removing the dependence on a console, which may not exist.

Proposed method: re-factor Idle startup to try to import tkinter first, rather than last.

If this import fails, inform user with console message and/or the os-specific means to gui apps to tell users 'I cannot start because ...'. I know this exists on Windows because I have seen such messages. I presume same is true on other systems.

If this import succeeds, setup traceback and warnings hooks to send internal messages to a gui messagebox rather than (or possibly in addition to) a console that may or may not be present. Or send the messages to the Shell window, but marked somehow as internal. The warnings hook might be used after importing non-Idle modules but before importing Idle modules, so startup is not bogged down on debug builds by DeprecationWarnings from non-Idle modules

To be a good citizen for testing, all custom hooks should be undone before the PyShell import finishes and before PyShell.main exits (same for
msg192087 - (view) Author: Roger Serwy (roger.serwy) * (Python committer) Date: 2013-06-30 22:00
This looks similar to issue13582 with the patch to redirect console writes to a GUI text box.
msg192094 - (view) Author: Terry J. Reedy (terry.reedy) * (Python committer) Date: 2013-06-30 23:53
The proposal here is to flip the roles of text console and graphics gui, rather than to indefinitely bandage the current roles. I would want that even with the patch for #13582 applied (which I hope can be done soon).
Date User Action Args
2022-04-11 14:57:47adminsetgithub: 62518
2020-06-07 23:27:02terry.reedysetversions: + Python 3.10, - Python 3.6, Python 3.7
2017-06-29 23:33:24terry.reedysetstage: test needed
versions: + Python 3.6, Python 3.7, - Python 2.7, Python 3.3, Python 3.4
2017-06-19 20:32:59terry.reedysetassignee: terry.reedy
components: + IDLE
2015-09-18 16:33:30markrosemansetnosy: + markroseman
2013-07-01 05:42:01ggenellinasetnosy: + ggenellina
2013-06-30 23:53:18terry.reedysetmessages: + msg192094
2013-06-30 22:00:04roger.serwysetmessages: + msg192087
2013-06-27 22:43:29terry.reedycreate